BrownMark, bass player for the Revolution, is the author of a new memoir titled My Life in the Purple Kingdom (buy now). Local Show host Andrea Swensson interviewed the artist about the book, his relationship with Prince, and his reflections on the need for racial justice.

Also: tune in to The Current's Rock and Roll Book Club this coming Thursday, Sept. 24 as Jay Gabler features BrownMark's book; and listen to the Local Show on Sunday, Sept. 27 as Swensson spotlights the life and music of BrownMark.

Transcript

BROWNMARK: Hi, I'm BrownMark with the Revolution.

ANDREA SWENSSON: Yeah. I think...I'd love to start talking about your beginnings as a musician, and I was really intrigued to see that the Way played a role in your connection to Prince and your rehearsals with your band and that just seems like such a significant space in that era. Um, can you tell me more about, you know, that period of forming a band and finding places to rehearse and what the Way meant for you in that time period?

BROWNMARK: It was hard. You know...we called it the Chitlin Circuit. And so what happened was, you know...there's not a lot of money. I mean, I think I made, you know, fifty bucks a weekend. You know. A hundred dollars if I was fortunate. And so, the club circuit back then for Black bands, it wasn't very lucrative, and so when it came to places to rehearse, you know, we didn't have ways to fund it, because there was just no money. And so we ended up rehearsing in...looking for basements, people's living rooms, and, you know, at one time I had the whole band piled up in my little bedroom. You know, with the bed and everything in there. I mean, just drum sets everywhere. It was...everybody just piled on top of each other. So that's how we had to do it, but as time progressed, the Way community center over North Minneapolis, one of the lead singers in our group, he was one of the community center directors. And so he made the suggestion that after hours, we could use the storage warehouse in the back, you know, as long as we didn't make any disruption and kind of just mosey our way in, you know, nobody's going to realize that we're there 'cause the place closes down at like eight, and we didn't get there 'til like ten, you know, eleven o'clock at night. So it worked out really well for us in the end there. We had a good place to rehearse, set up all the equipment, adjust the sound, and get everything all the way it was supposed to be, so. But it was hard finding rehearsal space.

SWENSSON: Yeah. So what kind of venues would Phantasy play in?

BROWNMARK: Um, not many. We had the Elk Lodge over in North Minneapolis. It still exists today. I drove by there a few months ago and I saw it's still around. The Nacirema Club over South Minneapolis is shut down. I think it is. I drove past there. It doesn't look like it's open anymore. But yeah, that was a small - I mean these are like small little mom and pop nightclubs that usually people a lot older than us frequented. So we would play like the older R&B music and some current stuff and - you know - real Chitlin Circuit stuff, and we're all crammed on a little tiny stage and the audience is the same height that we are, so we just kinda blend in. Um, yeah, it looked a little different - a little different atmosphere than when we started branching out and having opportunity to play like 7th St Entry at First Avenue - you know - big difference.

SWENSSON: Right. Yeah, and you wrote in the book about the dynamics there of kinda breaking into that part of the scene in downtown, and - you know - I've done a lot of research in recent years into just how baked-in it was - the discrimination against artists of color to be able to play anywhere, um, that wasn't - you know - as you mentioned - these smaller clubs in the primarily Black neighborhoods.

BROWNMARK: Especially when it was Uncle Sam's...it was really bad. I remember I went in there - I was - because - you know - you had to be, I believe back then, 16 - you know - you could - I had my driver's license, so you could get into a club and you - I believe you could drink at 18 if I remember correctly, but - you know - I found my way in Uncle Sam's at a young age and I got thrown out. I didn't do anything. I was just standing against the wall in amazement at how different it was. And yeah, they said I was harassing females. I didn't even - I didn't even start talking to girls until I was 18 years old. So it's the way it was; it's the way of the world, yeah.

SWENSSON: So what do you think was changing then when the Entry opened and as more of a variety of bands came in?

BROWNMARK: Management. I'll never forget Steve and Chrissy. Those were the two - you know - I can't remember if it's Chrissy or Christy.

SWENSSON: Chrissy Dunlap, yeah.

BROWNMARK: Chrissy, yeah. She was so sweet. I mean - and Steve too - you know - that - that changed everything for me because, uh, even for them even taking the time to consider what we were bringing in. So we changed up our sound a little bit, got a little more pop music put in there, and they gave us our shot - you know - we got to play 7th St Entry, and that's where I was - Prince used to frequent to come see me play, so that was a - you know - it was definitely a game changer for me.

SWENSSON: I love the way that you wrote about kinda your entrance into Prince's world. Like he definitely was scoping you out but I don't think you were aware of it at the time.

BROWNMARK: Yeah.

SWENSSON: And that then when you finally did meet him he was already kinda had his mind made up that you were gonna be in the band.

BROWNMARK: Yeah, that was weird, yeah.

SWENSSON: Can you tell a little bit of that story of getting that phone call while you at the Way? Like how did he even know you were at the Way?

BROWNMARK: Well that - that's - that was how I knew that he must have been scoping me out because nobody knew we were there. We couldn't tell anybody because again, we're not supposed to be there. And so to have the janitor at like 12, 1 o'clock in the morning knock on the door and say there's a phone call for Mark Brown - I mean everybody was like "huh?" And the room went completely silent and everyone's looking at me and I'm like I don't know what this is about. And so I went walking up to the phone and sure enough it was Prince. I didn't believe him at first, like this ain't Prince - whatever. I think I even hung up on him, like this ain't...He called right back and I looked at the phone; I picked up and he says, "Don't hang up." He says, "I want you to audition for my band." And was like wow, this is Prince. It's like wow. Uh, okay, I'm interested. And then he proceeded to tell me to learn like three albums or something like that, and Bobby Z was gonna meet me at the 7-11 at 7 o'clock. I was like how do you - 7-11? How do you know I - how do you know I work at 7-11 - you know - and so it was just really weird. He knew everything about me and I think he probably knew where I lived - you know - most likely he probably had my license, social security number - but it was all good - you know - that's how that came about.

SWENSSON: And then the way you write about the experience of Bobby driving you out to the house and that whole thing - it's just so evocative the way you tell that story but - you know - tell us a little bit about that experience of jamming with Prince and kinda feeling out each other musically for
the first time.

BROWNMARK: Well, Prince - interesting character. I mean, uh, knows what he wants and he knows how to test to see if you have what he needs. Because I mean that audition couldn't've lasted more than 15 minutes. I was like who goes to a 15-minute audition. And then he tells Bobby to leave? I was like something weird here - you know - but, uh, we jammed. I remember we did "Head" and like "For You," "Soft & Wet" - you know - we just went through a whole slew of songs - a whole, uh, a whole time period, uh, maybe 60 seconds, maybe two minutes a song - you know - and then he would say, "Okay, I got it." And then after about 10-15 minutes he just said, "Okay, I'll take him home." And when he looked at Bobby and said that all I could remember is Bobby saying, "You sure you know what you're getting yourself into?" I said yeah no. You know, because back then everybody thought - you know - Prince was gay and so it was like ah - I didn't care but it's like what does that mean "I'll take him home from here"? And then everybody had been putting all this stuff into my head - you know - oh, he's gonna - you gotta have a band initiation. So I'm thinking - you know - I'm kinda freaking out atthis point. But he turned out to be a really cool dude - came down the steps all perfumed up and ready to go the park - to the club - and he says let's go. And I was like - I'm like "what?" And so we go. We get in his car and we drive off and he's got this loud stereo system - black BMW, tires were too big. It sat like on the ground and yeah - you know - I'm this big dude and I'm sitting in this little car and - interesting; he was just interesting. And the music was phenomenal though. He let me hear "Controversy" album. It was just - I knew right then this is gonna be an amazing adventure. Then - you know - he told me, he says, "You got the job if you want it," he said, but he wanted me to wait until Monday to let him know for some reason. I was like I don't need to wait, bro. I said, "I'll let you know right now." And he was like no, no, I want you to wait. I want you to really think about this. I'm like, what? What is this with all this - you know - think about it, are you sure you know what you're getting into. So everybody kinda had that mentality and I wasn't sure about that. I didn't understand it because I was hungry. So for me it was a no-brainer. I didn't care if - you know - I had to like - you know - clean the lavatory for the first year. I mean nothing mattered to me; just to be in that - to get that opportunity, that's all that mattered.

SWENSSON: When you look back on it now, I mean through all the experiences that you had that you wrote about in the book - being in the Revolution - do you understand that more now - why Bobby would've asked you are you sure, are you sure about this?

BROWNMARK: Oh, yeah. I started to learn that very quickly. It didn't take long for me to figure out what Bobby was talking about because, um, I don't know what it was; maybe my age or maybe my background or I don't know. But I feel like he really singled me out and he beat me up hard - you know - mentally. And sometimes physically he would try but I mean he really, um, he was hard on me. But my mother was a very strong force in my life and she always told me ride the wave; this is a once in a lifetime shot, son. This is what you've been working for; because I was in the studio trying to do my own thing and trying to find out who I am and she was like he's already where you're trying to go and he's years in front of you. So she kept pounding that into my head and it worked because I took a very humble approach to Prince and it paid off. Even in the long run it paid off because - you know - I could be bitter. I could be very angry; I could be very bitter but I'm not. I love the guy - you know - I mean - he was like my big brother. I beat up my little brother. And so Prince used to beat me up like a big brother - you know - and I took it because I wanted to - you know - nobody twisted my hand and made me stay there. That journey was my choice and so I accepted whatever was coming - you know - I was determined to get where he is - you know - that was the goal.

SWENSSON: Right. It's really incredible to think about your first shows with Prince and with that band and I mean, man, what a transition to go from the Elks Lodge and the Nacirema and the 7th St Entry and then you're playing the Coliseum and you're opening for the Rolling Stones. I mean did you even have time to process that in the moment, like what was going on and how quickly your reality was shifting?

BROWNMARK: Not really - you know - didn't have a lot of time to process it. But I thought it was strange - you know - I really didn't have a lot of confidence in how that Rolling Stone thing was gonna work out, only because I grew up - I'm a musician - I grew up and I know the divisions that exist. They were real. I was one of the group leaders in my band, Phantasy, so I knew firsthand what was going on behind the scenes. So to go play with the Stones I was like wow, that's bikers and - you know - beer drinking wild crazy people that love the Stones. They ain't gonna be thinking about some skinny little androgynous-looking - you know - leg-warmer-wearing - you know - I mean how is this gonna work - you know - so that was a fear of mine, but hey, I was like I'm going with the ride. It's a journey now.

SWENSSON: Yeah. What was the kinda reaction after that in the band? I mean that must have been such an intense experience to go through together, to literally have garbage thrown at you, to hear a crowd that size booing - I mean it's such a - just a watershed moment in Prince's development certainly, but I'm wondering, amongst the rest of you, like how did you move forward after that? What was the conversation like in the band?

BROWNMARK: Everybody I think was - everybody was pretty quiet. It was a speechless time. Prince was embarrassed. Nobody can tell me differently because I'm the new guy on the block and, um, he was worried about that because he made a special trip to pull me aside and talk to me about it. I mean he had a very lengthy conversation with how I was feeling and, um, he was very forthcoming in telling me and assuring me this is not our audience - you know - and he kept saying that, and I was just like, I know it's not your audience; it's a Rolling Stones audience, but you could just tell he was really worried about how I was taking it in - you know - is this the way it's gonna be? Oh, I don't know if I want this, and - you know - so he was worried.

SWENSSON: That makes sense. Well I spoke to Bobby a little while ago about this era and he made a pretty convincing argument that that show really was the catalyst for the creation of 1999 and - you know - the additional Time material and the Prince that would kinda break through the mainstream in the next year. Did you sense that there was kind of something ahead on the horizon, that kind of moment where you were gonna reach a new level? I mean it's hard to assess something like that when it's all so new, but I'm just wondering - you know - if you could feel that transition as Prince's audience started to grow and change with the release of 1999.

BROWNMARK: Yeah, well for me - you know - me and Bobby have very different perspectives because of where we come from and the time period that I came in vs. the time period he came in; musically very different when I came in. There was a shift. So when I came in and he let me - first time he let me hear the Controversy album - see, I - for me I wouldn't so much say it was the Stones show. I believe Prince had this mapped out already because Controversy was already done when we did the Stones. So for him to let me hear the album - and I already heard where he was going - you know - he's cut through; he's going right for the pop - you know - that's where he's headed. And I was like okay he's crossed that racial barrier; he's broken that barrier. Because one of the things he told me was if this album doesn't work I'm done for. That's what he told me. I said, "I'm gonna get dropped off the label because this is my last album for - before I re-sign a new contract and they're not gonna - if this album doesn't work they're not gonna give me a new contract." And so it was a risk for him but he held his ground; he knew where he was going and I could hear it in the music that, oh man, this is going all the way to the top. I even knew - I knew it the minute he played that stuff for me in the car. So I didn't like some of it but that didn't matter, because I come from funk - you know - Cameo, Bar-Kays, Ohio Players. So this was like really different but it was funky but it had this element to it that was so new, so different. He was pioneering new territory and I was like if this works, oh, we're - we're gonna go straight to the top of the food chain here.

SWENSSON: Interesting.

BROWNMARK: Yeah, so when "1999" came about I remember when I first started writing it he called me to the studio because I was gonna - you know - I was supposed to sing "the sky was all purple there were people running everywhere." That was my line and he goes "you sound too much like me." I was like what do you mean. So he gave me a different line and I believe it was the last line - "tryin' to run from my destruction, you know I didn't even care." So he gave me that. He said try that. And so I'm singing that line. He says "We sound alike." He's A/Bing our voices - you know - and he says, "Uh, no, we sound too much alike." So he says, "Don't worry about it. We're gonna have you do something else." And so I knew right then when he brought me in and started help - letting me help on the records I was like "oh." I was like wow, this is, ah, not only am I in the band I get to help - you know - contribute to what this is gonna sound like.

SWENSSON: Right.

BROWNMARK: So even though he didn't give me a lot I got more of - more input in Purple Rain, but still he started feeling me out at that point. And so I heard the shift right there. That "Little Red Corvette," I was like I know where he's going.

SWENSSON: Mm, yeah.

BROWNMARK: To me that song was the tipping point for Purple Rain. Even though he already had it mapped out that song was such a pop hit that that was the one that brought in - I noticed even in the audiences it went from Black faces to white faces and all the Black faces were way in the back. You're talking about systemic racism, I'm telling you it was heavy and even to a point where the promoters - all the tickets were being sold in the suburbs before the inner cities. There was a lot of craziness going on because I remember he used to always complain - you know - it was like this brother thing - you know - and he would always complain to me about what's happening even in the promotional side of things. So, um, you could see the shift. He was always the battling the racism that exists in not just the record industry but also in radio and in promotion - the whole gamut. He was in it and he was determined to tear that down, and that's exactly what he did. And that's one of the geniuses of Prince, is when he saw something - you know - he'd go after it like a pit bull - you know - and accomplish what it was that he was trying to accomplish.

SWENSSON: That really resonates - you know - there's been a lot of analysis about why Prince wanted to have so much control over so many aspects of his career - developing Paisley Park, having his own complex, having his own record label. Like is that it? Is it because there were such poor experiences in the industry because the racism was so baked into every layer of it that that was his way to kind of gain control over that?

BROWNMARK: You know it's the same today - you know - we live in a world of monkey see monkey do. That's how the industry works. Throw it up against the wall; see if it sticks. Oh, everybody go that direction - you know - oh, there's a hit song; everybody go that direction. Everyone tries to sound like everybody. And Prince wasn't trying to sound like nobody. He was like you're gonna like me or you're not, and for all of you who don't like me, oh well, I don't really care - you know - he just had that kind of thing about him and, um, he wasn't about to follow the trends. He was going to create them. By far he was not a follower. He was a leader - you know - and all he taught anybody that worked with him - one of the number one things that I took away from the college, the university of Prince funkology was how to be a leader - you know - you gotta take the lead. You can't be afraid to step outside the box. Who cares what people think. Give it from here. If they don't like it, too bad. Keep doing what you do. And that's what got him over all of the time.

SWENSSON: One thing that really stuck with me after reading your book was just how like terrifying it was to be in a band that was famous, and the levels of physical and mental danger that you were in - I guess I had never really understood it to be so - just so severe. And I just wonder - you know - what was it like for you to retrace these things that had happened to you while you were in this era of your career, and to write about it? I mean it must've been a pretty heavy side of things to revisit for the book.

BROWNMARK: Well - you know - I went to therapy. I had a therapist and he told me, he said, "You should write about - write down the stuff that's troubling you." I remember he said to me when they put me on medication, he said, "I can help you with some of the depression but I cannot help you with life because life happens. It's what it is. You have to find a way to really combat that." I mean he really - you know - the therapist was really understanding of the uniqueness of where I came from. So the book became almost a therapeutic outlet for me. So I had been writing this book for a good 15 years now - you know -

SWENSSON: Wow.

BROWNMARK: Yeah, and so back in eighty - not eighty - 2015, 2014, 2015 Prince started calling me out to Paisley a lot. He'd fly me in for a few days and he started working with me again because I guess maybe he was trying to experiment with my sound, my style in reincorporating - I think he was looking for a Revolution type of a sound again with a new unit. And so he would fly me up quite a bit and, um, I told him - you know - I'm writing a book. And he kinda - he gave me that look like "Oh, you are? Interesting." And I said, "It's not a book about you." He says, "Oh, okay." And I said, "It's a book about me and you're just in it because I played with you." And he goes "Well, I hope you let me read it before you put it out." And I said, "I will." I said, "I will." I said, "Before I do anything I will send you the transcript and get your blessing on it." I said, "You ain't gonna like it but I'm gonna send it to you and get your blessing on it." I said, "Truth is truth." I said, "I'm not bashing; I'm not - that's not what I'm about but I gotta tell my story because that's my therapy. Now it's about me." I was a soldier. I gave him my years; my whole youth, I gave it to him. And so now it's my turn to take care of Mark. And so he was cool with that and then he passed away - you know - and that was really sad for me and then everything that I was working on went on hold from that point on. And then after a couple years with the Revolution I decided I'm going to re-explore it and I had some, um, some different ghostwriters that I was experimenting with but I really wasn't liking how, uh, the translation was being changed - you know - my voice was being changed and even with - you know - who I ended up working with, my voice changed a lot in the book and I was like I don't like that. So I took a lot of it back and, ah, before the last editing there was a girl that I knew; she was a professor in journalism and an editor. And her name is Carmen. And so I got with Carmen and I let her read it and she was like okay this is how we get your voice back. And so methodically one chapter at a time she started helping me rebuild my voice and then I was happy. Then I sought to release - you know - and, and land a publisher. And that's how it came about.

SWENSSON: Wow. What a process to go through, I mean internally before you think about what you wanna release to the world.

BROWNMARK: It's really difficult because if you're not a writer, and I'm not awriter, so - but I know what I wanna say. And so when you come from a world like where I come from - you know - you have to deal with other people's viewpoints of what they think you're trying to say and they interpret it the best way they know how. And then what happens is a lot of the humor, a lot of the real heart-wrenching pieces, see, they start to fizzle away. And I was like no, no, no, that's - that's the story. You got with the fire - you gotta have the fire in there. You got - people have to see what I was feeling in here. So that was the process. That was the hardest process, to be able to write it and deliver it in a way that you could really feel what I felt, see, and so I think between me, Carmen and Cynthia Uhrich, I think we really found that balance - you know - and we were able to finish this book - you know - in a way where people would really get to hear it from my voice - you know - now they took a lot of stuff out when they edited it because I had some pretty wild stuff in there and they were like "Eh, Mark, we might have to pull some of this out." I was like okay, I'm just writing. I'm just telling you all how it was. And so -

SWENSSON: Wow.

BROWNMARK: Yeah, it's watered down.

SWENSSON: Maybe someday we'll get the director's cut.

BROWNMARK: Yeah, you know that's like the, um, when I start doing readings and stuff I plan on reinserting a lot of side notes.

SWENSSON: Yeah.

BROWNMARK: Yeah, so -

SWENSSON: Wow. Well, I wanted to ask you about that in particular because I feel like - you know - there's so much stigma around talking about mental health, talking about abuse, and the fact that you were able to go there and talk about - you know - feeling physically unsafe and having people try to break into your home, try to break into your hotel rooms. I imagine at the time that wasn't something that was talked about as much, or if it was it wasn't maybe regarded in the way that we would talk about it now. I mean our understanding has just changed so much and the conversation around it changed so much.

BROWNMARK: Yeah, yeah. Well nowadays I think in Minnesota don't they have closed carry law? You can - concealed - yeah -

SWENSSON: Yeah, we do.

BROWNMARK: So you can carry guns. Back then - you know - it was illegal. So - you know - I've had some run-ins with the police and - you know - I've had my weapons in the car and stuff. And - but what do you do - you know? It's very scary. Prince was rich, not me. He could afford all the bodyguards. See, me, I had to take things back to the street and so - the fear was real. It was real but you had to live with - you had to deal with it. You had to process it in the best way you knew how and I don't think Prince realized that. See, he was so guarded, I don't think he realized the danger that I was in. I can't speak for the rest of the band. I've spoken with the girls - Wendy and Lisa - about incidences that I know happened with Wendy, that - you know - some scary stuff. But - you know - it's not my place to speak on it. But with me there was some scary stuff going on.

SWENSSON: Yeah.

BROWNMARK: You know - so I put some of it in the book. It ain't all in there - you know - that book would've been this thick, but I - I put what - enough in there where people could understand that walk - coming home, all your lights out and a shadow walking toward you. I mean laying in your bed and the cat's hair stands up on the back of his neck and you've seen that. You see it in movies, right? And he starts hissing at the window. I'm like who hisses at the window for no reason - you know - so there's - there was a lot of scary stuff and I'm really happy I developed a really close relationship with the Eden Prairie Police, which nowadays - you know - people - you know - they beat down on the department - you know - police and what have you. I understand it. Police - that's a brotherhood. They really - I felt it firsthand because when they started looking after me I became part of that. I've gotten phone calls across seas and say we found somebody in your car. Now they done broke in my house, stole my car out the garage and they're driving down the street, but because the police know it's my car they knew to call me and say, "Hey, do you know this person?" And I was like "No. What are they doing in my car?" So my relationship with the police - I really started to understand the brotherhood that was behind it. Nowadays - you know - in some instances it goes from brotherhood to gang and that's where I think - you know - a lot of police get a bad rap. Not all of them are like that but there are some bad ones out there; they give them all a bad rap - you know - but growing up in that time period I was fortunate that I had a good relationship with the Eden Prairie Police Department. And then I don't know what happened. I don't know what they have on file or whatever, but a lot of times when I would get stopped I would get a pass a lot. You know, I'd be whipping down the street 100 miles an hour and - you know - but they would - they - Mark, slow down; slow down, Mark. Or they'd catch somebody that was at my house and they'd call me and say, "We caught this guy peeping in your window. Do you wanna press charges?" I'm like heck yeah. So, uh, my relationship was very different with them, but the, um, as far as weapons and protecting yourself, I mean you had to - you know - that business, you're an open target for psychos.

SWENSSON: Yeah, it was pretty unnerving to read through your experiences and I mean it's honestly chilling at certain points as you're talking about walking home through the dark at night and feeling like well, this is my house; of course it would be safe, but it's not. You just don't know who's out there.

BROWNMARK: Yeah. Wait til you read the second book. The little...here in the second. I mean I'm comfortable now so the second will have some pretty heavy stuff in it, so -

SWENSSON: Wow. Well, I wanna ask you about what's probably not the most fun thing to talk about, is the - you know - kind of as the cracks are starting to show in your relationship with Prince and, um, I guess I didn't realize quite how that whole situation with the song "Kiss" played out. Um, but it was - I mean reading it you made it pretty clear what happened and where the lack of communication was and the feeling of betrayal. Um, and do you think that was kind of the beginning of your end - you know - with feeling like you needed to start thinking about other options?

BROWNMARK: It started way earlier than that, but that was like the straw that broke the camel's back. Because I had already knew I was gonna quit after "Purple Rain." I was - I had enough. I was done - you know - and that - I write about that in the book - you know - people will understand what had happened that got me to that point where I was like you know what, I'm done. But me and him remained friends, see, and our relationship shifted more business. You know I was now a writer, producer; I had written for Atlantic, Warner Bros, Motown, SOLAR. I was on my way to becoming a known producer, and so the business relationship changed. I had my own recording studio. I also had a studio at Paisley Park, a little small production studio. So I would get some overflow sometimes of work and things like that. So the business - the relationship changed between he and I. And so instead of me being bitter and angry about stuff I kept that open. But, the book talks about my solution to that - you know - I'd done a - I did a contract - sworn to secrecy under that contract. I couldn't tell anybody. But I did this contract to make it look like I was still - I still existed in his world as the bassist to the Revolution. The problem was, I called it the "dangling the carrot." Um, I believe the chapter was called "carrot and the hat trick" - you know - whatever.

SWENSSON: Yeah.

BROWNMARK: But what happened is - you know - you can only get a carrot dangled in front of you for so long. It's like the rabbit's gonna keep bouncing forward to get the carrot. It's like - I got to a point where I was like I don't even want the carrot no more because I'm never gonna get a bite of it. Never. And, uh, so when I - he found out about my group, Maserati. He asked me to put them on Paisley. He was like, "You know - us brothers need to stick together." And I was like okay, okay, I hear you. And so I put them on Paisley because us brothers need to stick together.

SWENSSON: Right.

BROWNMARK: And he brought me "Kiss," but it wasn't "Kiss" - you know - it was an acoustic guitar with the "Kiss" melody. He - I mean he wrote the song. It was - the lyrics were amazing. I loved the concept but I hated the song. And he said, "Just see what you can do with it." And I went in the studio and I added a beat - you know - first thing. I was like okay we gotta make this - I gotta put some brown stink on it - you know - and [sings]. And I was like okay, yeah, that's it, that's it. And then I was like okay it needs some swing. [sings]. I was like oh, that's it, that's it - you know - so I started building a beat and then I put the bass on it. [sings] I was like oh, that's it. And then we put the guitar in and it was like [sings]. And I was like okay something - it's good, but something's not clicking. The engineer that I always used was David Rivkin, and that was Bobby Z's brother; a great producer, great engineer. And, uh, he always had this trick where he would trigger something from - on a thing called Keypex. So he would take the high-hat and trigger an instrument off of the high-hat. And so he says, "Mark, I got an idea. Let's Keypex the guitar and see what happens." I said, "Man, yeah, yeah, let's do it." [sings] I was like oh, that's it, that's it. And then we put the words on it and - you know - we knew we had a hit. We knew it. It was like oh, this is it - first single - this is the hit. Prince walks in. I was like dang. Just like - because I knew automatically what that was about and the first thing - hold on - the first thing he says to me is, um, "So what are you doing right now?" And I was like "we're gonna go have some lunch and then - you know - come back and finish up." Hm. "Um, how long you gonna be gone?" I said, "About a couple hours." He said, "You should let me work on it." And I was like I'm thinking to myself "Oh, at least he didn't say - you know - "I wanna take that back." You know, he said, "Let me work on it," so I'm thinking good. He, uh, takes the whole reel - the 2" reel off, brings it into his studio. He was in I believe studio A and I think I was in C or B or somewhere. And Lionel Richie was in one of the other studios - you know - over at Sunset Sound. So I get back about 3, 3 1/2 hours later. He sent somebody out to get me. I go into the studio. He says, "Okay, sit down. I wanna explain something to you." And I was like aw, here we go. And then he goes "You know this is a hit song," and I said yeah. He says, "It would sound better on us," - you know - and I'm like "Us, huh? Us?" What do you mean "us"? He was like the Revolution. And I said, "Mm." I said, "So that means - you know - I'll have royalties on a Prince record." And he says, "Yeah." He says, "You know I'll take care of you." And I was like - I'm seeing dollar signs. I'm like cha-ching, finally the payoff, right? And, uh, so he lets me hear [sings]. Nothing changed. He put the guitar and he put his voice on it and it was a masterpiece. I was like this is a hit. And so I'm happy and told the band. They were mad. I'm happy, they're mad. But we went our separate ways and I was still in LA a while later and I'm driving down the street and I hear it come on the radio. And I was like wow, I wonder why nobody told me when it was gonna be released. But anyways, then I'm in the hotel room and I was just glancing at MTV and I see the video. And it was him and Wendy and I was like "Wow, dude, you can't even put me in the video?" And then so I went and got the album. I wanted to - I went to a record store and I read the credits. He gave me credit for hand claps. I got credit for hand claps. I was like wait a second, dude. So me and him, we - you know - that was a big fight. And he said he'll take care of it and blah blah. He never did. Um, I was too wet behind the ears, too young. I didn't know enough about business so I wasn't gonna go get a lawyer and all that. I mean this was my friend.

SWENSSON: Right.

BROWNMARK: So wasn't gonna go that route, but I didn't know what else to do - you know - and then by the time I got smart enough to realize what to do the statute of limitations had run out on it so "Kiss" was a loss for me. But that left a really bitter taste in my mouth for years. But later before his - he passed away he said to me something really interesting at Paisley. He said, "Thank you for helping me build this." And I remember I looked at him like wow, wow, you're welcome. I mean that acknowledgement meant a lot to me - you know - because man, I gave him the best of my years. And then he goes "You know - I know things weren't always right between you and I," he says, "but - you know - we're gonna make it right." And so I was like - you know - I'm touched by that - you know - and then he goes, "Um, - you know - this is your place too." And I remember I was like wow, dude, okay, you're stretching it. I said, "You gonna give me some keys? Because my place - you gonna give me some keys?" - you know - and he started laughing but - you know - because I knew that was a joke. But, uh, yeah we kinda - we were coming full circle. That's why his passing was just devastating. Because our entire life together was coming full circle and this reconciliation was starting to happen and I was starting to feel really good about him and him coming back around and recognizing some of the ways he treated me, and even some friends that he didn't know I was friends with, but he was on an airplane with them and he says, "Yeah, I did him wrong. I wasn't nice to him." Because that friend came back and told me and I was blown away. I was like "are you serious?" And he says, "Mark, I don't think he knows you and I are friends because I don't think he would've said that if he knew I knew you," he says, "so keep it under your hat, but I just wanted to let you know how he really feels." And so that's when - you know - you really started - I always knew Prince had a lot of love in him, but at that point I really got to see. I said he loves us. Then I went into Paisley and he had murals of - you know - I'm in there as a mural. And - you know - I was like whoa. That's love - you know - the dude has love for us. And so - you know - all of my - all the bitterness that I had, the anger that I had - I'm glad I chose not to become tyrannical or attack him - you know - legally or anything. I remained his friend. And by me doing that he let me into his world again more as a friend - you know - and I appreciated that - you know -

SWENSSON: Yeah. Wow. That's so beautiful. I'm so glad that you got to have that exchange with him.

BROWNMARK: Oh, definitely, yeah.

SWENSSON: So I wanted to ask you a little bit about the, um, era leading into Sign O' the Times. There was just so much music being made in that period. I mean it's mind-boggling really how much music was pouring out. And I'm wondering - you know - how involved were you in the development of - you know - the Dream Factory material leading into Crystal Ball and how aware were you of what he was doing and just any kind of memories that come up for that period.

BROWNMARK: Well, um, like with Purple Rain Prince was always a couple albums in front. Sign O' the Times was actually being created with the Revolution, see. We were working on that stuff way before that album was finished - Dream Factory, all that kind of stuff. So what Prince does is he's already ahead and then he just shelves it, see, until he - until it's complete. And, uh, he knew my time was coming up. He knew that contract was running out in 1986, see, and so, I knew that bothered him. I know that it did because I could tell by his behavior, not just with me, because he - you know - he was pretty mean. That whole tour - Parade Tour - I was behind the piano and he put three guys in front of me. If that's not him letting me know that he's angry - you know - he basically let me know he's mad at me. Um, but I'm cool with it. It was like - you know - we made a deal and we were both happy about the deal but you could still tell it was tugging on him. By the end, the last gig in Japan, he went on a...he went on a rant. He was - you know - smashing stuff onstage and he was pretty angry. I knew what a lot of that was about. I knew because I knew I was gone and I think a lot of that anger - and I could be wrong, but this is just my opinion, that he knew he had to now rebuild, see, because I was the bottom end of the Revolution. That - my whole bass style, my whole rumble, my whole roar, growl, all that top end - Wendy and Lisa and Matt - I mean that was still there but - you know - the bottom drops out and now you got a whole different thing to deal with. So I knew he was struggling with that, and how I know that is because right after he disband the Revolution he called me out to Paisley and he asked me to be in New Power Generation - Sign O' the Times album.

SWENSSON: Huh.

BROWNMARK: Matt had already contracted with him to do it. Everybody else was let go. I was - of course I was - I had quit and he's asking me to come back and it ain't been six months, and I was just like dang. I said, "Prince-" - you know - it was Sheila E on drums, it was Levi, Miko Weaver, me - it was gonna be a phenomenal band but I said, "I gotta move on." I said, "My time is over." I said, "I gave you my best years," and I said, "I got nothing to show for it - you know - I got some fancy cars," I said, "a studio, but - you know - it's time for me to really find out who I am." And he respected me for that - you know - because he kinda just shook his head and he said, "I can respect that." From that point on, man, our relationship really changed - you know - it was more of a respect that he had for me from that point on. I could stand up to him and say I'm done, I'm not gonna take it anymore. So, um, that's about as much involvement I had with Sign O' the Times. Up to that point it was all - you know - pre Sign O' the Times and like with Purple Rain, like Dream Factory and things like that - songs like that - it was a jam. We would jam a lot of stuff for hours and then he would shelve it. So when he finally put Sign O' the Times together, um, I think Wendy, Lisa, and maybe the other members - I'm not sure - but I think they had more active input on some of the newer stuff than I did because I was already gone. But I know that a lot of that album he pulled from when we were jamming on it earlier on you know.

SWENSSON: Right. Right, yeah, it's - I think it's pretty fitting that there's a - "It's Gonna Be a Beautiful Night" - that's - I mean that's the Revolution - Prince and the Revolution live and it really shows it's almost like a way to say goodbye a little bit or maybe like that's the closing of that chapter including that song on the Sign O' the Times album.

BROWNMARK: Yeah, yeah.

SWENSSON: I mean what was it like for you to have that material come out later, once you had already kinda departed?

BROWNMARK: I mean it was cool but - you know - you gotta remember I had a different attitude. I'm - I'm a little - I'm a little bitter even though I'm maintaining a friendship. I still got a little bitterness in me because it's like where's the money - you know - see, what good is the fame and - I have 22 gold and platinum albums on my wall - you know - two American Music Awards and something like - you know - two Grammys but six placards - Grammy placards for different - different involvements with different music. I had AMPEX awards for being a producer. I mean I had all these awards and I'm just like yeah, but what good is it if you don't have the reward. You don't have anything to show for it - you
know - and what was really hard for me was people come up, and this was the hardest thing. People come up to you and - you know - they see how you live and they see how you roll and then they go "man, y'all - you guys must be loaded." I'm riding in coach - you know - and I got people looking at me oh, man, BrownMark. And first class got ten empty seats and they're looking at me in coach and they're like yow, man, what was it like, and they're talking to me and I'm just like in this crowded seat like this - you know - and it's like it's really hard to even relate because for so many decades we were way up here riding in first class. We were riding in first class coaches, buses, we're staying in five-star hotels, we're living this dream but we did not have the bank to reflect it. And so, um, that's what started to break me down. Now I don't know about the rest of them but for me that's when I - the reality started to settle in and I had to start really asking myself what am I doing - you know - now I'm 26 years old and I had joined when I was 19, so - you know - I'm looking at almost a decade gone and I'm like well, what am I gonna do now. So...

SWENSSON: Right. Well I really enjoyed the way that you wrapped up the book - the scene of being in the ocean in Hawaii and getting beat up - getting out there and doing it again. I mean what a metaphor for your experience and then for the next chapter that was about to unfold that you didn't even know that when you got home you'd sign to Motown and be off on this new leg.

BROWNMARK: Yeah. Well here's the thing about the Hawaii story that I didn't really, uh, place a lot of energy on, but - and I save it for the interviews. When I laid on that beach, bloody, bleeding - you know - blood dripping out of my knees, I wanted to die, see. That's how bad it was. For me to go out and hit those waves - and we're talking North Shore - 20 - the stuff you see in the movies. I can't even. I'm not even a good swimmer, so subconsciously, see, that's how much pain I was in. To go out there knowing good and well that - what was coming, I just faced it head on and I just went out there and - you know - that wave slapped me down and pushed me on the shore and then all the water went away and he said, "Not this time, buddy." That just - lifeguard comes over to me and he's like I think you need to stick to boogie-boarding - you know - and I was like wow - you know - it was like wow, okay. I get up and I go on my way all scraped up - you know - but what a lesson I learned about life.

SWENSSON: Right. Yeah, that really resonated with me, um, and then it's just so wonderful to have this next thing waiting for you - your future.

BROWNMARK: Yup. I'm gonna get off the plane, right?

SWENSSON: Yeah.

BROWNMARK: Hey, we want you to stop in LA before you go home. What's that about - you know - so that was a really interesting story too because that blew me away because not too many people can say they sat in Berry Gordy's living room.

SWENSSON: Right.

BROWNMARK: See. I'm talking some of the biggest of artists - you know - not too many of them can say they got to eat lunch underneath the waterfalls.

SWENSSON: Mm.

BROWNMARK: You know, on gold - gold forks and - I mean this was amazing - that whole house - you know - and so that's - the next book, I'm telling you, is gonna be a good one.

SWENSSON: Just as a reader to - you know - to finally get to experience you being treated the way that you've been wanting to be respected and to be getting a serious offer financially, and it's just, after all the things that you lay out in the book it's very satisfying as a reader. You're just like yay, it's all coming together.

BROWNMARK: You know I was in good hands. I really was in good hands and I had a lot more lessons to learn, so - you know - I've been taken care of - you know - and so now I'm on a new journey and my whole life has been pretty tumultuous but I have to tell people I'm happy. See, you can't buy happiness. I don't care how much money you have. I've been filthy rich; I've been dirt poor. I'm telling you right now you can't buy the happiness. The happiness, it comes from a place deep in here and you have to find what that is in yourself - you know - and for me I found it in spirituality and in aligning my whole entire self being with my choices - you know - the things that I choose for me. I'm good enough - you know - to make those choices. Nobody can tell me anymore how I'm supposed to walk, talk, do my thing.
I say nah, I'll do it the way I want to. If you don't like, oh well. I'm happy.

SWENSSON: Right, right. Well, I have one more question for you if you have time. I know I've kept you for quite a while already.

BROWNMARK: Good.

SWENSSON: This is outside of the book but - well it's kinda related to the book because you talk about growing up in South Minneapolis and being rooted around that neighborhood around Central, and that neighborhood has now made international news with the killing of George Floyd and I just can't even imagine what that's been like for you to watch that play out in an area that you're so familiar with, but I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts to share on - you know - what this experience has been like for you these last couple of months.

BROWNMARK: Right across the street is where in the book I got attacked by skinheads.

SWENSSON: Oh wow, yeah.

BROWNMARK: That same corner but across the street.

SWENSSON: Wow.

BROWNMARK: And when I saw what happened to George Floyd, you see the photos in the neighborhood I used to walk to that when I was a little kid. I lived on 33rd and Park - I mean 33rd and 3rd Avenue - 3305 3rd Avenue South. I used to just walk up there to the corner store and buy candy right where he died. See, and, um, - you know - when you see stuff like that it's like, uh, I don't know what's happened to this world, to this country, but man, we're right back to where we were in late '50s, early '60s when I grew up - you know - '62 - I grew up with all this nonsense, this racial disparity, this hatred, this disregard for human life because of somebody's skin color. So yeah, when I saw what happened to George Floyd what ran through my mind was wow, this isn't a Black problem. See, my whole life I've felt like it may be a - it's our problem - you know - we have to figure out how to overcome this - you know - and after he died I realized for the first time, this isn't a Black problem. This is an American problem but it's a white American problem because the laws, the Constitution, the things that were instituted - you know - the institutions and things that we're governed by were allcreated for America, but back then it was white America, see, and then we kinda trickled in on the back end of that - emancipation - you know - go figure life out. Well wait a minute; who was my father? You know, I mean, but go figure life out. Oh, I can't read - you know - and so - you know - there were a lot of educated blacks, a lot of uneducated, but to make a long story short we have this systemic problem and it's bad and for the first time that my heart rejoiced when I saw not just people of color but white people as well joining in in saying you know what, enough is enough. This is ridiculous. And I thank the internet. I thank cameras, cellphones, because if it wasn't for that we would still be in this world where nobody believes us when we say we are a target. Nobody believes it. Everybody says it's equal opportunity, equal rights for all. I lived this stuff. No it's not. I'm a good decent person but I can tell you no it's not. There's a lot of work to be done for racial equality in this country even when you start talking about red-lining.

SWENSSON: Right.

BROWNMARK: I know it all, see. I know it all. I've studied it all. I've understood it all but it's like I always thought it was - as African Americans it was our problem. No, it's not our problem. We can't change it, see, so it's not our problem. We are just caught up in the problem - you know - but until the rest of America stands up and says no, no, no, no, we gotta weed out this hatred; we gotta weed this stuff out. Until that happens it's - nothing's gonna change and so I'm very happy at what I'm seeing now, especially some of these monuments coming down and some of this - you don't go to Germany and see swastikas flying around - you know - you just don't.

SWENSSON: Right.

BROWNMARK: You just don't - you know - you know - they recognized what the problem was and they fixed it - you know - after the war. And the same in this country. We gotta fix the problem, so George Floyd - you know - my prayers go out to he - his family and I'm very grateful for what his sacrifice brought to the American eye, the public view. Everybody got to see how awful a place this really is. Make America great again? Come on, it was never great in the first place - not for us. So - so that's why that's a hard one to swallow too because I grew up in turmoil. When was it great for me? You know, and so you know - and I don't knock anybody that wants - you can believe whatever you want. I don't take one side or another. But I just keep it real and I can only talk about what has affected me in my life, and
for me it never was great, so it was hard for me to, um, understand this shift that took place in the past few years. It's like what is happening. We're going back. We're going backwards. We're not moving forward. What is going on here? And so - you know - I've had - it's been like this - roller coaster ride with this - you know - sometimes I get depressed because - you know - you start thinking about all this garbage that's going on and it's just like it's ridiculous - you know - and I live in the South. I
live down here. Sometimes I get scared to leave the house. That's the way it is.

SWENSSON: Yeah. Where are you living now?

BROWNMARK: I live in Atlanta. They just murdered that boy here down in Savannah, just - he was going for a job, went to an abandoned house. I've done that a million times. I'm not going in there to steal. There's no doors. You just walk in and wow - you know - look at this. This looks - wow, this is cool. And he loses his life for it? You know, the system has to change, and what it is is it's fear and hatred.

SWENSSON: Yeah.

BROWNMARK: That's the problem - fear and hatred. You, you fear what you don't know. If you take the time to get to know what you fear you'll realize it ain't scary at all.

SWENSSON: Right. I feel like too there's just so much cognitive dissonance in this time that we're all waking up to this idea that we've been living in different realities, that white people thought that we had progressed much further than we had, and obviously Black people know that we - know what the real
situation is but our world is so separated that it's - I just - yeah - takes these moments for people to really see how it is for people that aren't like you, and I think in Minnesota too we've been especially good at telling this narrative about ourselves that we're this like liberal progressive place and that it's such a wonderful place to live and, um, I'm just really grateful that people seem willing to have more honest conversations in recent years about the realities for everybody and what we can do together.

BROWNMARK: Yeah. I think that's one of the reasons why the publisher - you know - the university - they liked my book so much because the, um, historical content is so spot-on.

SWENSSON: Yeah.

BROWNMARK: Because I don't pull punches. I mean I'm just telling it like it is. I mean I'm not trying to create a story to sell a book and make money. No, I'm - this is my therapy. I'm just telling people how
I live. This is what I went through and racism was a humongous part of it. When I get slammed on the ground as a 14-15-year-old boy just coming out of the Skyway Theatre after seeing a movie and I get slammed to the ground, a arm shoved all the way - so far back up on my back that you naturally have to turn around because of the pain. And then you get kneed in your back and they're saying stop resisting. I'm like how am I resisting. I'm in pain. You're hurting me. And then I hear a call on the radio and he says - gets up and he says, "Uh, wrong guy." No "sorry"; no nothing and he runs off because he realized
that I had nothing to do with whatever they were looking for. Where's my justice? I got scuffed around on the ground and almost beat up. And that's just one of several incidences growing up in my life and people don't understand how that pain touches people like me. You're driving down the street and you see a squad car behind you and you're like you tense up and you keep looking at the mirror - you know - and you're always adjusting because your experience is fear. See, people don't understand and people wanna argue about privilege and things like that. See, that's what we talk about when we start talking about privilege. You know, I don't have the privilege to drive to the store and feel comfortable - you know - that's what we're talking about - real simple aspects of life. We're not talking so much about wealth and all that kind of stuff. We're talking about the simple things in life that I don't even get to do - you know - going to a gym to work out in the South and Big Chick has to scare everybody in the place because they don't want me there - you know. What an experience - you know - as a kid - you know - so yeah, I'm glad - I'm glad that this change is ushering in and I hope it continues on.

SWENSSON: Me too. Well I really appreciate the work that went into making this book and the documentation. As you say, it's so important and the historical facts about the Twin Cities - I mean you even mention King Solomon's Mines, which I loved hearing about that club. I just loved all those little details and the Way and - you know - your early days making music. It's such an important document of that period and just thank you. Thank you for doing this. this was great.I really appreciate you giving me so much time.