Singer-songwriter Michael Kiwanuka has been a busy guy. He’s been on a dual-headlining tour with Brittany Howard, and this week, he’s getting ready to release his next album, Small Changes (out November 15 on Geffen Records).

While he was in St. Paul as part of his tour with Brittany Howard, Michael Kiwanuka walked over to The Current to chat with Bill DeVille about the upcoming album, including what it was like to work with producers Inflo and Danger Mouse — and to work with esteemed Minneapolis musician and producer Jimmy Jam.

Use the audio player above to listen to the interview, and find a transcript below.

Interview Transcript

Bill DeVille: Hey, I'm Bill DeVille. I'm here with Michael Kiwanuka. Michael, so good to see you.

Michael Kiwanunka: Good see you, too. 

Bill DeVille: Yeah, it's been ... let's see, there was a pandemic just about to start the last time I talked to you, and you did a Theft of the Dial. 

Michael Kiwanunka: Yes. Oh, I did! I did, I did. I had a good time.

Bill DeVille: I remember you came here and you DJ'd, and it was really a cool set.

Michael Kiwanunka: Thank you. Yeah, I had a good time — always do it The Current, to be honest. So yeah, and I didn't — yeah, we didn't know what was around the corner, literally around the corner then, you know?

Bill DeVille: Right. Right.

Michael Kiwanunka: So, yeah, a lot's happened, but it's good to be back.

Bill DeVille: Have you done any DJing since then?

Michael Kiwanunka: You know what? I think I've done one. There's a station, a good station in England, similar to The Current, and I've done one, filling in for another DJ. But that's about it. I think I've done one, love to do more.

Bill DeVille: Yeah? Well, I thought you seemed like a perfectly natural, you know, perfect natural DJ when you were up here it was fantastic. 

Michael Kiwanunka: Thank you.

Bill DeVille: So you're on tour with Brittany Howard.

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah.

Bill DeVille: A co-headliner deal.

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah.

Bill DeVille: How do you figure out who's going to be playing last in situations like this? Do you rotate or do you both play, you know, equally long sets? Or how does that work?

Michael Kiwanunka: Actually, those two we rotate around. We play the same — essentially the same amount of time each night. And like you know, Brittany is really such a nice person, really mellow. And I've supported her a couple of times when she was with the Alabama Shakes. And there's a lot of the crew is the same, really, really good people, so it's pretty mellow, and we just swap. But funnily enough, I do have a favorite slot, but I don't know ... it's funny, the last slot is, like, everyone thinks that's, like, the best slot. But there's something about the slot before even, like—

Bill DeVille: Especially if it's on, like, a Sunday night.

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But even, like, at festivals and stuff, on any day, there's like, a mood that I think fits my music the best, which is not, like, right at the end of the night, sort of as the night's becoming happening. And people have a different ... they're, like, really awake and ready to, like, receive things. The later you get, you get tired. And there's a lot of music, but the tour has been, it's been a really nice bill. It's a really good match. The gigs have been amazing. So it's a cool way to come back to the U.S.

Bill DeVille: So is it difficult to be away from your wife and children? I mean, you have a couple kids now since the last we spoke, too, right?

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's tough, man. It's like, it can be, but it is what it is in a weird way. You sort of like, just do the best you can. FaceTime. But it definitely changes the way you approach touring. Actually, it changes the way you approach your whole life, and you have the whole work. There's a lot of things you have to do, you know? So you miss home, but like the gigs and like, once you get up on stage and the gigs, how they've been, it does make it worthwhile, you know? Yeah.

Bill DeVille: I saw that you played Glastonbury, the legendary Glastonbury Festival this summer.

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah.

Bill DeVille: How was that for you?

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah, Glastonbury was amazing. So obviously, being British, Glastonbury is like, a staple. And then it was on the Pyramid Stage, which is like, yeah, the main stage at the festival. And it's like, pretty iconic. Everyone's played there from, you know, Neil Young and Radiohead. I mean, everyone, Jay-Z. So I played on that stage about 5 p.m., I think it was. The weather was beautiful, the sun was setting. And probably the biggest stage of, in terms of, like, you know, notoriety I've ever played.

Bill DeVille: Did I hear there was like an equipment breakdown during your set?

Michael Kiwanunka: There was, like, a keyboard thing. It was something happened to my keyboard, but actually, it didn't actually break, but I thought it did. But it actually, weirdly, sort of like helped the show, sort of like gave people a sneak peek, unbeknownst to me, of like, me, I guess, and it sort of like, brought people in. And people talk about the Glastonbury crowd and the audience being a special thing. I definitely felt it that moment, it was almost like they were, you know, I felt like their support was so strong. You felt like you were being, like, lifted up in the air, you know? They give you so much encouragement. So it actually was a nice way, weirdly, to connect with the with the audience, and sort of become friends, you know?

Bill DeVille: Sure. I was there years ago, and I still remember, you know, you had to have your wellies on all weekend. Was it a mud fest again this year?

Michael Kiwanunka: Luckily, this year wasn't. But I have been there some years where it's a mud fest, and as you know, it's like, pretty hardcore. It's a big site now, and the mud, you know, the further the days go, the deeper the mud gets, and the more sludgy it gets. So like, walking feels like, you know, it's like, feels like you're walking double the length of everywhere you go, and you just really hurt your legs. But luckily, it was like beautiful weather for three days, yeah.

Bill DeVille: So it's been five years now since your highly decorated Kiwanuka album, and you are coming back with a new album, which is due on the 15th of November called Small Changes.

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah.

Bill DeVille: So tell us about the album. How is it different from the Kiwanuka album?

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah. You know, Small Changes is pretty different in my opinion. And I know no one's heard it yet, but like a couple of singles. But I would say the most immediate differences are probably, I would describe it as a lot more understated than Kiwanuka. Kiwanuka was like, I feel like Kiwanuka and the record before, Love and Hate, I definitely was in a different space of trying to prove a lot of things as an artist to peers and musicians I liked, and audiences, and how people view your music or view you as an artist, and what they think you can do. So that definitely affects how you make your music, not in like, a commercial sense, but more in an artistic sense. So I tried to, like, flex as many of those muscles so they were, like, really broad strokes and big interludes, and the production was super layered. Yeah, I only thought of this looking back as well, when we were making Small Changes, but the production became, especially on Kiwanuka, like really, really relayed with so many ideas and so many sounds. And it was just to create a strong, vivid world for the listener, to show my mind, really, and how much is going on in there and show most of myself. And this, Small Changes, is almost the opposite. It's sort of like, I'm not trying to prove anything with it.

I remember having a conversation with one of the producers, Inflo, and I said early on in the sessions, I was like, "I wonder what an album will sound like when we're not trying to be cool or anything, you know, we're not trying to prove anything." And it sort of came out like this, you know? And more about the voice, more about my voice, and more about the lyrics and the melodies, and less about, like, flexing your artistic muscles.

Bill DeVille: Seems like everything has room to breathe a little bit.

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah.

Bill DeVille: And it's a nice sound. And, you know, speaking of artists, you used touchstones like Bill Withers and Sade.

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah!

Bill DeVille: I mean, Bill Withers, the king of the understated album.

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah, yeah. And he's always been a hero of mine. But for someone like Bill Withers, I sort of re-engage with that. Basically, my early influences are sort of like — remember it's me at like, 18, and not even knowing what making an album was, or what even being an artist means, just sort of expressing myself through songs. I sort of went back to that, which was like, for me the right time, you know? I was ready to sort of do that. It's funny you look for your own sound, and my sound is so inspired by so much classic stuff, but I think within that is me looking for my own sound, is strip everything away and find out what it actually is when all the other stuff's off.

Bill DeVille: But I hear hints of '70s jazz and prog a little bit.

Michael Kiwanunka: Oh yeah, always, yeah.

Bill DeVille: That's kind of a touchstone for you all the time, isn't it?

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah, especially, like — yeah, prog was, like, the Pink Floyd influence is always there. And then jazz has, like, been — you know, I studied jazz for a bit. And I'm a huge — like, I was really a jazz fanatic from like 16 — I was sort of a weird teenager between like 15, 14, and like 17, I didn't even know any ... That was like the indie rock world, in the noughties of the U.K., all those bands were coming out. I hardly knew any of those, and was listening to, like, '50s and '60s Blue Note record. I was sort of like in my own world. So there's always going to be a bit of those elements, I think — even without trying! — sort of in there whether I like or not now.

Bill DeVille: What's it like working with with Danger Mouse? 

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah. Amazing. Danger Mouse, legendary producer. Both are very phenomenal producers. Probably describing them as producers is probably, like, not a big enough word to describe them well enough. But it's nice working with him. Just working with someone with a lot of experience and, like, strong opinions and an interesting, unique viewpoint on the world and art, you know, it's good, it's fun. You can just ask any question, and you know you're gonna get, like, a really interesting answer, or something you've never really considered, which is, for me, is fun. And then he's also really, really good, so like, you know that if you're making music, you're gonna have something that you enjoy. Yeah, and this is our third record together, so I'm learning how he works more. He's learning more how I work, and I feel I've learned quite a few things that makes the process even a bit easier and more confident in what I do, rather than I think before, trying to guess what someone else wants, or be everything, you just do what you do, which actually is easier for everyone in the process. So it's really cool, yeah.

Bill DeVille: I saw that Pino Palladino plays bass on your record. I remember him, he was the first guy to replace John Entwistle in The Who.

Michael Kiwanunka: In The Who, yeah.

Bill DeVille: Did you talk about the who and stuff a little bit?

Michael Kiwanunka: I wanted to. I wanted to, but we didn't really get to talk about — I mean, there were so many questions I wanted to ask, but he just was talking about the record and, like, what to do on the bass. Well, I discovered him on the Voodoo album, the D'Angelo Voodoo album. I used to love that in school.

Bill DeVille: Super cool record.

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah. And that type of bass playing was, like, sort of new; you know, inspired by old, '70s bass players, but, like, he just put a spin on it. No one had really heard anything like that. So I wanted to ask about all of that. But he really was like the Pino I imagined, you know? He's on one track in the end, and that's probably, like, the best bass playing ever, or definitely on the album. Yeah, he's phenomenal.

Bill DeVille: I also saw — you know us in the Twin Cities, this means a lot — Jimmy Jam!

Michael Kiwanunka: Jimmy Jam, yeah!

Bill DeVille: Tell us about working with Jimmy Jam. What did you do on your record? And I imagine you talked a little bit about Prince and ... ?

Michael Kiwanunka: Oh, yeah, Jimmy Jam was kind of like the opposite of Pino. Jimmy Jam was around a bit more. And Jimmy Jam would, like — you could ask him anything, and he'd be really happy to talk about everything from like Janet Jackson days to Prince days to the whole lot. And similar to like Brian, it just has, like, a wealth of knowledge. He's like a, he was just such a nice, calming figure in the studio. But he knows Inflo, and we were in L.A., and, you know, he lives in L.A., and he came to, like, hang out with Inflo, and then he just, like, stayed. And then eventually we were like, "Hey, do you want to play? We need Hammond on some stuff." And he's like, "Yeah, I'll play." And he's actually on like, three-quarters of the album. All the Hammond you hear, other than maybe one song, is Jimmy Jam. He's on essentially a lot of the record now, in the end.

Bill DeVille: Wow, that's so awesome.

Michael Kiwanunka: It was really cool, man.

Bill DeVille: Fun to work with him, I bet, huh?

Michael Kiwanunka: Amazing. Yeah, he was ... It was like, working with, you would have never thought like he's done all what he'd done in music. He was so humble. So it was like it was his, you know, first gig in a weird way. He never really, like, imposed his legendary status on anyone, unless you sort of prised it out of him. So it was pretty cool. Really, really cool guy. Yeah, yeah.

Bill DeVille: I was doing some reading about you, and I read that you are kind of terrified of AI.

Michael Kiwanunka: Oh, yeah!

Bill DeVille: Artificial intelligence.

Michael Kiwanunka: I am. Definitely.

Bill DeVille: Tell us your thoughts on that.

Michael Kiwanunka: Well, it's AI. I mean, I was even terrified of, like, I remember of being in school and being terrified of Facebook when that came.

Bill DeVille: Yeah.

Michael Kiwanunka: I just don't get — I'm just not really used to things that aren't, like, with a human around it. And then, you know, AI is just kind of like intimidating. It's like living with robots. It's just sort of wild to me when, like, they could turn against us. And also, music, really ... you know, it would be sad to hear music — well, actually hear anything — made through AI. And I know there'll be, probably be ways to, I think what would be cool with AI is like, someone really smart to manipulate AI to do something creative with it. That's cool. But AI just for the sake of ease? Pretty terrifying. I would hate that. I mean, like, no one would need to come. I would never need to make an album. You could just press a button. And so I just feel like it would be odd. I don't understand how we would work with, like, intellectual property. Whose is it when it's not yours? It's AI, you know? How does that happen? And you know, as much as we can make a mess of things, humans are pretty cool. I just don't think we need, I just don't think there's any point on the planet if there's no humans on it.

Bill DeVille: What if there was, like, you press the "Michael Kiwanuka" setting? I remember when AI was first around a few years ago, everybody was posting the AI Johnny Cash, and it didn't really sound all that much like Johnny Cash. 

Michael Kiwanunka: There was one Oasis one that was like, really good. There was a whole Oasis — maybe that's why they got back together — but, like, there was an AI album, a whole album, of Oasis-sounding tunes, and it was scary, because everyone loved it. So they were like, "Well, we don't really need Oasis. We've got we wanted. It sounds like What's The Story Morning Glory." So you take out the artistic expression, you take out the wrestle between the artist and audience, which I think is cool when the questions are asked of like, "I liked the second album but I didn't like the fifth," and then someone else likes the fifth and they didn't like the second and then, like, 10 years later, you like the fifth album. You just basically get these carbon copies. And everyone was like, "It's a great album. It sounds great. It's what I wanted. I don't need to see Oasis!" It scratches that itch. And so to me, I was like, "Oh, no, that's like, the worst thing ever." So maybe that's why they got back together so the AI couldn't take their...

Bill DeVille: So how do you feel about Oasis getting back together and all? You're from the U.K. So how did it feel over there with all that? That's all anybody was talking about, yeah.

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah, I mean, it was fun to talk about. I mean, I was really, like, a Blur fan. I will be honest. So like—

Bill DeVille: Can you like...? Some people say you can't like both. But is that true or not?

Michael Kiwanunka: You, sort of, you can be—

Bill DeVille: Is it like the Stones and the Beatles or what?

Michael Kiwanunka: A little bit. You sort of ... For me, like, it shows, it kind of describes who you are a little bit. 

Bill DeVille: Yeah.

Michael Kiwanunka: But it is, like, maybe a bit more poncy in a way. A bit more, like, art school. Definitely more art school. And Oasis is just like brute force for the people, but really, really amazing songwriting. And like, yeah, you couldn't escape it. And it was cool for a bit, you know, nostalgia and stuff. But the thing I found interesting was the lack of bands, you know? So I was, you know, I don't know if a band can really do that anymore, a new band. And it just shows, I think it's like an example of how music consumption has changed, and how we as people consume music, you know, and how we can create our own niches and worlds on our phones and in our laptops and amongst our friends, where in the Oasis times and before, you know, there was really, like, one avenue for things, so someone could become huge with two albums. To do that now, it doesn't really happen. It does with solo acts sometimes. But again, it's like, also a lot with the personality. So it made me remember, like, "Oh, wow, I wonder if a band today could do that?" I don't know if that's a good or bad thing. But yeah, it was cool. I mean, I haven't bought a ticket, but yeah, you know, it's definitely—

Bill DeVille: You were probably in queue for a whole day and just gave up.

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah, I didn't even try to be, but a lot of people were. But yeah, you know, it will be a fun, interesting, monumental, funny moment see those two together. Whether they don't argue again and they can survive, you know? It'll be interesting to see. Like tabloids. It's like a soap, so yeah.

Bill DeVille: Sure. A couple of fun questions to wrap it up: When you're doing your sound check before a show, what's one of your favorite songs to just pull out to play?

Michael Kiwanunka: Oh, cool question. So I always do one that is easy, so that I can get used to the stage. And then I always do one where, like, there's less musicians playing, so I can just check that I can still sing that day. So probably, you know, we always usually do "You Ain't The Problem," because it's like everyone's playing, and it's a comfortable song. And there's actually a song on the new album called "Lowdown (part i)", and that's been quite fun to play.  It's got a similar thing. We really enjoy playing that. But there's a song I really love to play if we're feeling good, it's a song off the Kiwanuka called "Hard to Say Goodbye," and it has a really nice intro, and it sounds really cool. So if there's a really nice-sounding room, a theater sort of place, and we don't need something else, I'll usually play that just to feel the room and to hear the sound, you know?

Bill DeVille: Sure. And what was the last album that wasn't you that you listened to start to finish?

Michael Kiwanunka: Oh, wow! Oh, that's a good question. Dude.

Bill DeVille: Or one of the last albums you listened to start to finish?

Michael Kiwanunka: Whoa. Good question. It was probably ... Oh, man! It was — I bought a record the other day in a town called Romsey near where I live, where it's just old people live there. And it was in a second-hand shop. And it was Bobbie Gentry and Glen Campbell duo album with, like, the song, "Sunday Mornin'" is on there, and "Let It Be Me," the cover of "Let It Be Me."

Bill DeVille: Oh, lovely!

Michael Kiwanunka: Can't remember what the album's called because I've listened to it once, but I just put the record on, packing for this tour.

Bill DeVille: Bobbie Gentry was amazing.

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah, Bobbie Gentry and Glen Campbell duo album. It's like, Capitol Records.

Bill DeVille: Sure.

Michael Kiwanunka: Can't remember the name of it, but I bought it because of Bobbie Gentry in the cover.

Bill DeVille: Sure. 

Michael Kiwanunka: And I put that record on while I was packing for the U.S. tour.

Bill DeVille: "Ode to Billy Joe."

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah, yeah! That's not on there, but that's what I know of her. She sounds amazing on that record. There's a song on there called "Sunday Mornin'." It's Sunday morning right now as you talk. And it's really cool.

Bill DeVille: Yeah. Michael Kiwanuka, so nice to see you again.

Michael Kiwanunka: Nice to see you, too. 

Bill DeVille: Congratulations. I can't wait to hear the the rest of the new album. What I've heard, I've caught three songs, and I think they're, all three of them, are fantastic.

Michael Kiwanunka: Thank you so much.

Bill DeVille: Yeah.

Michael Kiwanunka: Yeah.

Bill DeVille: So I look forward to hearing more from the record, and we'll catch you next time through. Always good to chat with you, sir.

Michael Kiwanunka: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Bill DeVille: My pleasure.

Credits

Guest – Michael Kiwanuka
Host – Bill DeVille
Producer – Derrick Stevens
Video – Megan Lundberg
Audio – Cameron Wiley
Graphics – Natalia Toledo
Digital Producer – Luke Taylor

External Link

Michael Kiwanuka – official site